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Is Kali VOIP worth $10/yr?

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Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.11.13 16:38:00 - [1] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 13/11/2006 16:40:18 I won't pay for this service. Bottom line: It won't be useful to our alliance as we already have a dedicated Ventrillo (and a separate TS Server as well) Server. We have no need for a system that people can't connect to when they're not in the game. We use Vent/TS not just because it's voice comms, and not just because it's free (relatively speaking) but also because it allows people to connect and keep up on what's going on even when not in game or while in an entirely different game so that if we're needed we can be asked to hop back in game. It just doesn't seem to me that this VOIP solution offers me anything that we don't already have with Vent/TS. We already have unit/task/org specific channels and means to switch between them easily. So what exactly do we gain for $10 a year? Nothing. there's no added value to this service over what we already get (for free for alliance members) from our Vent / TS servers. One of the things I've been curious about is how does CCP justify, in their minds, charging extra for a VOIP system when two other games already offer the same service free of charge to their subscribers (PlanetSide and DDO). And DDO uses the same 'expansions are free' methodology as EVE as well. EVE is far superior to those titles but I still don't see what justifies asking us for $10 a year for a service that isn't as useful as what we already get for less from a Ventrillo or TS server.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.11.13 16:59:00 - [2] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 13/11/2006 17:03:16 Originally by: Crumplecorn To summarise the 'anti' side: "The voice chat is bad because I don't know what it will offer, think it will have limitations which it actually won't, and refuse to pay the bank-breaking figure of $10 a year for something I won't be using 24/7." Nope My summary: The $10/month option is 'bad' because not everyone in my alliance will use it. Matter of fact even fewer will use it than use the Ventrillo option (which is free to them) now. Because not only do they not like using voice they don't want to pay to use it either. For every 1 fewer person on voice that's one person that it's harder to communicate with. No matter how AWESOME the features are you can't tell me that alliances will have an easy time convincing all their members to pony up an additional $10 a year to pay for VOIP when they already get it free from alliance TS/Vent servers. Not to mention that they have already stated that you cannot use the VOIP when the game client is off. Which means you have to be in game to use it. dunno about you but our members connect even when not in EVE to keep up on what's going on. I personally hop on it even if I'm just playing VTM or some other single player so if something pops I can hop on to help out. I'm not against in game VOIP... I just don't see where it's worth an extra $0.85 a month for the game. It offers some nice features but it also takes away a few as well. It also means that fewer (not more) alliance members will be using it. I just don't see enough players opting to pay around $1 a month extra for a feature that most of them just don't need 90%+ of the time to make it worth having. If our leaders decide to turn off the Vent servers and use this I'll probably pick it up. But I know a lot of people that just won't use voice if that happens.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:24:00 - [3] Originally by: Hurgrin Kanso Just as a thought to those who say 'I got Voice Chat for free, i host it on my spare PC/whatever'.. if you take the cost for electricity etc you actualy pay ALOT more then $10/year or then just renting a TS Server. Just as an example.. in Oklahoma, the price per Kilowatt ranges from 3 - 5 cent per Kwh (Kilowatt/hour). If you have TS/Ventrilo running on a spare PC (350W PSU), for 18h/Day and 350 Days/Year (just an estimate for Downtime, Network failure, Power outages, Vacations, etc) you still pay $88 per Year. Taking a Kwh price of $0.04 (4 cent/kwh). This doesnt incluce the Monitor (not realy needed for running a Server anyways). And that 1 server hosts up to 1,000 other people Or that 1,000 other people can pay $10/year each $10,000/year Not that I care... $10/year is, as you said, not a big price. But I do have an issue with CCP deliberately running a service scam. They're charging over 1,000% more for their service than the competition. And it just isn't that much better. Like I said, that's not my major issue though Major issues: 1) Not everyone will get it, thus it becomes less useful the fewer people who use it in the alliance the less useful it is. 2) It cannot be used outside the game (yes it's a "future" feature... for 2008... sorry then don't release it till 2008. If I CTD I do NOT want to lose comms) 3) It adds overhead to the CLIENT... it won't affect SERVER lag but you can bet your tukas that slower systems will feel it client-side. Those are my 3 big gripes with it. And until I'm convinced enough people in my alliance are using it to bother then I won't be forking out $10/year for it. Sure it's not a lot. But I already get nickle and dimed to death enough out here in the real world where some of us pay bills, mortgages, car payments, etc. Bottom line isn't the price it's the fact that Vent is more useful right now. I don't care if I can see where some dude is on the map. How often are you flying around with the friggen map open in combat?
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.11.14 10:38:00 - [4] We were talking about this in corp the other night (and alliance as well) Bottom line: Alliance and Corp are going to stick to our current voice system. Most people aren't willing to pay $10 a year for a voice system that doesn't give a dramatic improvement over our ventrillo server which members already get access to for free. Whether you and I think it's worth $10 is meaningless if half your alliance won't use it. If half the alliance pilots refuse to use it then it's a worthless tool. Period. End of story. You can carp about how $10 isn't much money all you want. Bottom line a pay service will never win over a free service unless it offers SIGNIFICANT advantages over the free service. And everyone agrees: The fact that you can't be on Vivox if the GAME client is not logged in is a huge downside that no in-game feature can compensate for. Some folks say: "If you are playing wow why do you care about EVE?" To which I simply reply: Sometimes I hop on guildwars instead of EVE but I still monitor voice comms so that if a POS is attacked I can log in to help or if someone does a spur-of-the-moment OP I can log in to join in. Etc. Just because I'm playing something else to kill time doesn't mean I don't keep tabs on alliance/corp matters via voice. People need to get a grip and realize that the majority of the big complaints folks have with this feature isn't how much it costs. It's that it costs MORE than what they already get for free and really offers no significant improvement over it. Who cares if you can chat in local.... lord have mercy. And someone else kept spouting off about having to remember IP's and Passwords... err.... you put the comm info in the corp/alliance channel MOTD and have done with it. For officer/gang chat... same thing. It's not hard to figure this stuff out and the voip client (Vent or TS, whichever you use) will remember the IP and password information for you.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.11.14 12:57:00 - [5] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 14/11/2006 13:02:49 Originally by: Nate D Originally by: evistin I am not being mean, I am being realistic, no matter how many features the voice system has, it can't beat the sheer flexability of TS and vent in the long run. If EVE voice can do everything that TS/Vent can do... and a lot more... And it takes out all the hassle that goes with TS/Vent... How is it any less flexable? Your logic understand I don't... -NateÖ NATE Please show me where I can connect to vivox when NOT running the EVE client. IE: If I'm in Guild Wars... can I be connected? No, I cannot. Thus it is not as flexible. Period... end of discussion... I am really getting sick of the rose colored glasses posts about how wonderfully fantastic this app is. It's just NOT flexible if it's tied to a client that CTD's more often than friggen Win95 had to be rebooted during a software install. I also have yet to see anyone explain how this supposedly has better audio than Ventrillo (which has superb audio quality). Maybe it's audio is phenomenal over a LAN... but over a international hop across the atlantic to the USA? I somehow doubt it's any better than TS using good codecs or Vent using normal settings.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.11.14 13:37:00 - [6] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Taram Caldar Edited by: Taram Caldar on 14/11/2006 13:02:49 Originally by: Nate D Originally by: evistin I am not being mean, I am being realistic, no matter how many features the voice system has, it can't beat the sheer flexability of TS and vent in the long run. If EVE voice can do everything that TS/Vent can do... and a lot more... And it takes out all the hassle that goes with TS/Vent... How is it any less flexable? Your logic understand I don't... -NateÖ NATE Please show me where I can connect to vivox when NOT running the EVE client. IE: If I'm in Guild Wars... can I be connected? No, I cannot. Thus it is not as flexible. Period... end of discussion... That is not inflexibility, that is it being a different product. IG VOIP!=OOG VOIP. If you want to be connected to the VOIP server but not the game, it isn't in-game voice comms your looking for, is it? So how can you complain that in-game voice comms has this 'problem'. Yes it is. When your arguement is that it is "better" than comparable products that we already have using that as an arguement why we should be paying extra for it. The fact is it's just a different product. It's got a different feature set and is more LIMITED in use. So why would we switch to it? Most of the 'improvements' are unique to EVE only which is ok... but they don't justify a fee for a service most players already get through their alliances free of charge. Why would anyone pay for something they alredy get free? What about this service justifies a 1,000% increase in fees over it's competition? Nothing. It offers a few in-game widgets that are, while useful, completely un-necessary to the average player. So there's no reason for the average player to get it. Thus not everyone will have it, which further lowers it's value. Add to that the fact that we'll already have to keep our Vent/TS servers and it begs the question: If I have to use 2 solutions to get barely more functionality than I already have with 1..... why would I want two, one of which I have to pay for? Sure, it's only $10 a year. No big deal but it's next to useless if even just a few people don't use it. And as long as they don't see it as a wise investment that's going to be the case. As to raising the cost for EVE? I don't see why? Many other MMO's are offering VOIP in-game, free of charge. It begs the question: If the cost for this service is only $10/year per player why doesn't CCP just absorb the cost? $10/year/player is peanuts compared to what they're raking in ($150+/year/ACCOUNT)
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.11.14 14:06:00 - [7] Originally by: Nate D IF eve voice can do everything TS/Vent can do... Just because it currently doesn't meet up with your OOG standards doesn't mean that it wont in the future. The potential of the product is absolutly astounding! BTW... my glasses aren't rose colored... they're pink. -NateÖ This one part is the killer for me, and for EVERYONE I've talked to about this in alliance.... nobody wants it until it matches the OOG functionality. Because OOG communications are equally as important in coordinating ops and getting reinforcements as IG comms are. Actually in many ways they're MORE important. On any given night some of our more casual members are playing other games. But if we need combat reinforcements they're typically only a channel away on our voice comms. In Vivox we won't have that option. So why switch to it until we do? I just don't feel that the utility, while it has promise, is worth paying $5,000/year for our corp. Especially when we have a dedicated Vent server for a whopping $20 (covers the ENTIRE alliance) that supports all our EVE needs as well as our OOG and other game needs. We've got folks who play DAOC, Guild Wars, WoW, Counterstrike, BF1942, BF2142 etc. All on our server.... we can reach out and touch them on a moment's notice anytime we need more ships in system. Vivox can't do that. And that ONE feature is _huge_. Currently, until that is available there is no way most of our members intend to waste $10 on it. It's just a fact. I'm not saying it's not decent quality. I haven't used it. I am just saying that currently it's not worth the money. Not by a long... long... long shot. $5,000 vs $20 You be the judge... which would YOU pay for? Or ask your alliance to pay for?
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.11.14 14:22:00 - [8] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 14/11/2006 14:23:04 Originally by: Harisdrop Originally by: Taram Caldar stuff I think you miss the point. The difference between VIVOX and TS/Vent is anyone can use VIVOX for comms. Therre is no restriction between the parties to voice talk on a random moment. There's no restriction between parties on our vent server either. If you're a member of the alliance you have access to all member channels. Quote: Your in local and hear some interesting news you look at the guys bio and see he has a channel. You ask for an invite and boom you are in the conversation. Tell me you can do that with your TS/Vent. How many times you get the IP and only to sit in the entrance until you are dragged to a channel. Tell me how fast it is to get to voice. Tell me you SA will allow you just to let anyone in the server. Err... no thanks... And I have never 'sat at the entrance' on our alliance servers. If you are a member you are granted access and can move to whatever channel you need to freely except a few administrative/locked down channels that only certain folks are allowed in. I don't see the 'general chat' feature of Vivox as a bonus really. I barely pay attention to local as it is other than to watch for unfriendlies when working in 0.0 or lowsec. Quote: Tell me you would allow a war target on your server? If an individual wanted to do soo with VIVOX he can now. Err... why would I want to? LOL You're arguing moot points here. I don't use VOIP as a social outlet. It's a tool for improved operations performance. Sure our alliance members chat it up in the general channels and such but it's a tool, not a social club. Quote: I am not saying you cant do it without VIVOX I am saying players will be using VIVOX cause it makes a better game. Then explain why everyone I've asked in game specifically stated they don't intend to pay for it? I think 3 of the 15 folks that were discussing it last night said they were definitely going to get it. 2 others (myself included) said we are thinking about it. I just don't feel that vivox is ready to be released as a fee based service. If it allowed OOG comms as well? SURE I'd jump all over $10 a year for it. But now? I just don't see the point. I get more utility out of Vent/TS by a mile. Like I said: I don't care about idle chit-chat. I can use text for that just fine. Matter of fact I prefer text for that because I don't have to pay attention constantly. I can look up and see what the guy said 5 minutes ago and respond to it. No... IG Coms are for one thing for me (and for most members of my alliance): Coordinating in game operations/events. Not idle chatter so much. In fact idle chatter is generally discouraged except in the general chat channel. Which anyone in any game can participate in. So we can keep up with our friends in other games as well. I have a free solution that I like. Why would I pay money for one that I don't find as useful that has a few bells and whistles that I'll rarely, if ever, use and lacks the 1 feature that I use a lot?
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.11.14 14:25:00 - [9] Originally by: Harisdrop Originally by: Taram Caldar $5,000 vs $20 You be the judge... which would YOU pay for? Or ask your alliance to pay for? If members are in game and not on TS/Vent would you mind if they are in VIVOX? If members are in game and not on TS/Vent then they aren't involved in the op and I could care less what they do with their money. What I am saying is that unless EVERYONE in the alliance that participates in ops pays for this it is USELESS. Right now we can REQUIRE everyone to be in Vent when we run an op because it's Free. You can't say "sorry either buy vivox or you can't come to the op"... well.. I guess YOU could... but I won't. And neither will our officers. Everyone keeps saying how wunnerful this is. I'm just saying it's not useful to alliances currently because most people we've talked to don't consider it worth the fee.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.11.14 14:26:00 - [10] Originally by: Nate D Edited by: Nate D on 14/11/2006 14:19:48 Originally by: Royaldo 1. i got a bloody job 2. im also a student 3. i got both ts and vent for FREE. 4. what it costs pr year doesnt matter, I DONT NEED IT. 5. you fanboys need a life. /me coughs... 1. I have a job (haha I work for Cold Stone Creamery... the ice cream place!) 2. I am also a student I'm a Sophmore in college this year. 3. I prefer TS over vent but I got them for free as well. 4. I make enough tips in the winter working at an ice cream place to pay for that $10 a year charge. 5. I have a very active life and a very big ego... the women love me! <3 -NateÖ You are welcome to spend your money however you wish. But there is a saying: Rich people don't get rich by frittering their money away. They get rich by not buying things they have no need for.

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